Finding Home: John's Journey from Hidden Identity to Sobriety
S24:E26

Finding Home: John's Journey from Hidden Identity to Sobriety

Episode description

John shares his path from a secret gay childhood and early drinking to discovering AA’s Quality of Life group and a supportive home group. He reflects on family alcoholism, anxiety, and how community helped him sustain sobriety since 2013.

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0:00

- Thank you for that announcement, that introduction.

0:03

Ben, thank you for inviting me tonight.

0:05

It's an honor and a privilege.

0:06

And welcome to the newcomers.

0:09

I'm John C. and I'm an alcoholic.

0:11

I don't go by John C. anymore

0:14

because as I moved to Palm Springs,

0:17

I went into a meeting

0:19

and I started announcing myself as John C.

0:21

And a guy walked up to me after the meeting one day

0:23

and he says, "That's a very unusual name you have."

0:26

And I said, "John?"

0:27

He said, "Oh, I thought your name was Chauncey."

0:29

(all laughing)

0:31

So I thought about Bruce calling me Josie and the Pussycats

0:36

for many years.

0:36

I got sober September 3rd, 2013.

0:41

I went to a brief outpatient for 10 days,

0:44

had no intention of going into AA,

0:46

and my doctor suggested that I go to a few AA meetings.

0:50

And I said, "Well, I've had one sobriety.

0:53

I'll go into that in a minute."

0:54

I had a sobriety in the past.

0:56

I went to AA and it didn't work and I didn't like it.

0:59

And he says, "Well, do it for me."

1:01

So I went to one meeting and it didn't,

1:03

it just didn't work for me, that one.

1:07

But then the second meeting I went to was Quality of Life.

1:10

- Quality of Life.

1:11

- Your old location.

1:12

I came in through Sherman Way.

1:14

So I came in through the back way

1:16

and worked my way down into the meeting hall

1:18

and someone put out their hand and welcomed me, James.

1:21

(all laughing)

1:22

Yeah, and I will never forget that.

1:25

Put out his hand and said, "I'm James, who are you?"

1:28

And other people in the meeting were very welcoming.

1:30

And it was just, I mean, I just knew I was home

1:33

and I didn't know what a home group was.

1:35

Now I do, and a home group's very important,

1:38

but I knew that I was home.

1:39

So how did I get here?

1:41

Let's go back a very long time.

1:44

When I was a small child,

1:46

I think about four or five or six years old,

1:49

I was very uncomfortable in my own skin.

1:51

I just, there was just something wrong.

1:54

I didn't feel like I belonged in that family.

1:57

I felt out of place.

1:58

It just didn't feel right.

2:00

A few years later, I realized,

2:02

I was about seven or eight years old, that I was gay.

2:05

And that was, to me, the start of a big secret

2:09

that I couldn't tell anybody.

2:11

I couldn't talk about it.

2:12

I had to hide my feelings.

2:14

And it was a secret that I felt like

2:16

I had to take to my grave because nobody would understand

2:19

and I just don't even want to deal with this.

2:22

So I had a very uncomfortable childhood,

2:24

I think largely because of that.

2:26

Now, my family was a normal family.

2:28

My mother grew up in an alcoholic family

2:31

and her father was a raging alcoholic

2:33

who left on the weekends and got drunk

2:35

and came back and went to work on Monday morning.

2:38

And they had kind of an absent father

2:40

and they'd have to go bail him out from jail once in a while.

2:42

So when my mother married my father,

2:45

they were going to have a non-alcoholic household.

2:50

So when I grew up, I didn't know that people drank.

2:53

Drinking was something, there were two bars in town

2:55

and drinking was something that normal people didn't drink.

3:00

I was told that that's something that very few people did

3:02

and it was bad and we just didn't go there.

3:05

That's just, we didn't associate with people like that.

3:08

So that actually made it easier when I started to drink

3:12

that I was under the radar.

3:14

They weren't looking for it.

3:15

But anyway, so when I was about 14 years old,

3:18

one of my best friends discovered

3:20

that I had never had a drink.

3:21

And he said, "Oh, we've got to fix that."

3:24

So I remember this evening vividly in my mind,

3:28

four of us went to a drive-in theater

3:30

which had stalls between the cars

3:32

and it was an x-rated drive-in theater.

3:35

That's why they had the stalls.

3:36

So you could also go there and drink.

3:38

So we went there in a '59 Chevy Biscayne

3:41

and the four of us took a bottle of Seagram 7

3:44

and some Coca-Cola and I had the night of my life.

3:47

I had the most wonderful night and I got very, very drunk.

3:52

I threw up, I had a great time.

3:54

I went home, I went to bed, I got away with it.

3:57

And I said, "I've got to do this every weekend.

3:59

"This is just marvelous."

4:01

And I also, then I felt like I fit in.

4:04

I fit in with my friends that I was drinking with.

4:07

It was just, that made a lot of my anxiety go away.

4:12

As long as I could look forward to that weekend

4:14

and have that experience and just let it all out,

4:18

I felt like I would be fine.

4:20

So fast forward a few years, I go off to college.

4:23

I've never been called mature for my age.

4:25

So I go to college, I'm expected to go graduate,

4:29

go out and get a job like everybody else in the world.

4:32

And yet I'm just, I'm a nervous wreck.

4:35

And so I basically,

4:36

I had a couple of really bad quarters in college

4:39

and then I started drinking with the guys on the hall.

4:42

And it'd be like on the weekends

4:44

and then it was every night.

4:45

And then once in a while,

4:46

I would have a couple of sips of bourbon

4:49

before I went to class in the morning.

4:50

So it's interesting because,

4:53

drugs are also a part of my story

4:55

and there's a little marijuana involved in college

4:57

'cause I was in college in the 70s

4:59

and it all helped medicate me

5:03

and make me feel a little more normal.

5:05

And I noticed, I used to brag about it.

5:09

My first year I didn't party much.

5:10

And then after that, I partied all the time

5:12

and my grades went up.

5:14

So a few years later, I graduate from college

5:16

and I think, okay, enough of this partying stuff,

5:19

I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna work,

5:20

I'm gonna be successful, I'm gonna have a career.

5:23

I went to school and studied architecture,

5:25

I love architecture.

5:26

So I put a lot of effort into my career,

5:29

but there's a lot of anxiety

5:31

and I'm still not a really mature person for my age.

5:35

And so I would medicate as often as I could every night,

5:39

every other night, several times a week,

5:42

definitely on all weekend

5:43

and it would make the anxiety go away.

5:46

So Cookie, I could really relate to what you were saying

5:49

in your 10 minute share about that feeling in your gut

5:53

and you don't have to get drunk,

5:54

you just have to take a drink or two

5:55

and then the anxiety sort of melts away.

5:57

I really related to that.

5:59

So I'm not addicted to alcohol at that point

6:03

in my early career.

6:04

I'm usually a daily drinker every other day or every few days

6:08

and a couple of days a week, I go out and I go to the bars

6:12

and I get really drunk and then I go home

6:14

and I don't go out to get drunk,

6:16

but I go out and I end up getting drunk and it's fun.

6:20

And then I get up in the morning and I can barely function,

6:22

but I pull myself together and I go to work,

6:24

go through the day and then the anxiety comes back,

6:27

next night I'm doing the same thing.

6:29

I'm trying to medicate so that I don't have these feelings.

6:33

I like secrets.

6:34

So most of this, I kept secret from my family.

6:36

My mother would not want to know

6:38

that her son was drinking a lot.

6:41

My parents approved of social drinking,

6:43

but I was never a social drinker.

6:45

I mean, the first drunk that I had was hardly social.

6:49

That was a get drunk event.

6:51

So social drinking for me is go to a cocktail party,

6:54

have a half a glass of wine and put it down

6:56

and don't finish it.

6:57

And I've never been that kind of a drinker.

6:59

So anyway, so my drinking got a little out of control.

7:04

I guess I was, see, it's put a year on it.

7:07

It's about 1989.

7:09

I lost a few jobs.

7:10

I was living in Atlanta.

7:12

I was not dependable.

7:14

I didn't show up to work all the time

7:15

when I showed up to work.

7:16

I didn't have a very good attitude

7:18

and I got laid off from several jobs within a year.

7:23

And basically I knew that I needed to change something

7:27

and I did a geographic.

7:29

So I moved to Los Angeles with my partner

7:32

and decided to start over, got a good job,

7:35

decided I wasn't going to drink.

7:38

I wasn't going to do anything.

7:39

I was just going to white knuckle it.

7:42

And it didn't go very well.

7:43

I was really having a meltdown at work

7:46

and I pick up the phone at work one day

7:48

and call the employee assistance program

7:50

because I felt like I was going to do something.

7:52

I was going to get fired again

7:54

and I had nowhere else to go.

7:56

I had to make this job work.

7:57

So this is the start of my first sobriety,

8:01

which did not turn out very well.

8:03

So the employee assistance program got me into therapy.

8:07

The therapist was a huge fan of AA

8:10

and she got me to go to AA meetings

8:13

and I did some therapy and I went to AA meetings

8:17

and I got a sponsor and my (indistinct)

8:19

tried to get me to work the steps.

8:21

And I remember trying to work the first three steps

8:25

and I just couldn't, the first step,

8:28

I just could not comprehend what it meant.

8:31

Now, looking back on that,

8:32

I realized that I knew my life was unmanageable

8:37

and by that, I mean, all I wanted to do

8:39

was to get my career back.

8:41

I didn't care about changing anything.

8:43

I didn't wanna change anything.

8:45

I thought everything was just fine.

8:47

I just needed my career back.

8:49

And the part about being powerless over alcohol,

8:52

totally lost on me.

8:53

I was not powerless over anything.

8:55

I am the power, I have the power.

8:58

So I feel sorry for that first sponsor.

9:01

He did his best with me, tried to get me to do 90 and 90

9:04

and I don't have time for that.

9:06

I have a job, I have a career

9:08

and I've got to make that work.

9:10

So anyway, I was able to cobble together a year

9:14

and they gave me a cake.

9:16

My sponsor gave me some flowers, it was all fun.

9:19

And then I sort of wandered away.

9:21

And by wander away, I mean, my sponsor left town

9:25

and he was seriously ill and he ended up dying

9:27

and I didn't get another sponsor

9:30

and I just didn't go to any more meetings.

9:32

I think I maybe went once a month for a while

9:34

and I said, nah, I don't eat this.

9:37

So I got three very dry years.

9:40

I changed absolutely nothing.

9:43

I never even worked the first step and I felt very thirsty.

9:47

I mean, I felt miserable.

9:49

I felt like everything, everybody was against me.

9:52

The world was against me.

9:53

Everything was a struggle, everything was negative

9:56

and it just wasn't working very well.

9:59

And so I went out, I was at a company social.

10:03

I didn't intend to go out.

10:05

I intended to just stay dry, but I was at a company social

10:08

and I'd just been made associate.

10:11

All the associates are sitting around a table.

10:13

We're all dressed up very nicely on a Saturday night

10:16

and they bring out trays of margaritas

10:18

and they set the margaritas down in front of each of us

10:23

very conspicuously around the table.

10:26

And I had never told anybody that I worked with

10:28

that I was an alcoholic or that I did not drink.

10:31

And I looked at that and I said, holy cow,

10:34

what am I going to do?

10:35

I have to drink that.

10:37

They're going to ask me questions.

10:40

I'm not going to be able to answer them.

10:41

It's going to be embarrassing

10:43

and I don't want to go through that embarrassment.

10:45

So I picked up this margarita and I drank it.

10:47

And the world didn't end.

10:48

It was actually okay.

10:49

I went back to my room that night.

10:51

I called my partner back at home and I said,

10:54

you won't believe what happened.

10:55

I had a drink tonight.

10:56

And he says, so?

10:57

I said, I feel fine.

10:58

So from that point on, I felt entitled to drink again.

11:02

And it didn't hit me right away.

11:04

I started, you know, I'd have a drink every now and then,

11:07

and then we decided to buy another house.

11:11

And that was just sell one house and buy another.

11:13

And that was very stressful.

11:14

And it went on for three months

11:15

and I was having double gin and tonics every night.

11:18

So, you know, I was really,

11:19

every time I got into a little bit of stress,

11:22

I was belting down a gin and tonic

11:24

and feeling a little better about it.

11:25

And so I was out basically for 20 years, all total.

11:30

So three years of sobriety, miserable, go out,

11:34

stay out for 20 years.

11:35

And the last 10 years,

11:37

I knew every day of that 10 years that I was an alcoholic.

11:41

I said that to myself many times.

11:44

My partner said it to me once.

11:46

He said, you know,

11:48

I think you need to think about

11:50

what you're doing with alcohol.

11:52

I don't think you're so far gone yet

11:54

that you can't change your course.

11:56

He says, I'm never gonna say this to you again,

11:58

but I'm gonna bring it up once this one time.

12:00

And I remember that was 10 years before I got sober.

12:03

And I said, thank you very much.

12:05

And I thought to myself, I can outlive this, I think,

12:07

you know, I can drink.

12:09

And, you know, I just,

12:11

I didn't think it was going to advance so quickly,

12:14

but I knew that I was an alcoholic.

12:17

I knew that I wanted alcohol every day.

12:20

And there was also some drugs involved.

12:22

So the drugs that I would take

12:24

would allow me to drink more alcohol

12:26

and not feel it as much.

12:27

So anyway, so about,

12:30

I got sober September 3rd, 2013.

12:34

About 2012, I started to realize

12:38

that I couldn't go without alcohol for a day.

12:40

In fact, I couldn't go without alcohol for a few hours.

12:44

I started to notice that in the middle of the night,

12:47

I would wake up and I would get up

12:48

and I would go downstairs

12:50

and I would have four or five glasses of vodka

12:52

out of the freezer, nice and cold.

12:54

And then I could go back to sleep.

12:56

So I thought, well, I didn't realize that I had to have it.

13:00

I just wanted to have it.

13:02

And I thought to myself, how many lines I had crossed.

13:06

And I would just say,

13:08

oh, well, there's another line I've crossed.

13:10

You know, that's not so bad.

13:12

I, you know, it's just what I'm doing, it's okay.

13:16

But I was definitely, I had a medical event once

13:19

where I had to have some minor outpatient surgery.

13:23

And the doctor told me not to drink for 14 days

13:26

and I was horrified.

13:28

And I had to take penicillin and he said,

13:30

don't drink alcohol or it'll mess with the penicillin

13:33

and you really need to do this to heal.

13:35

So I did what the doctor said.

13:36

And I remember that that week was a ordeal.

13:39

Every hour of every day, I wanted to drink

13:42

and I look forward to the moment when I could drink again.

13:45

So I realized when I quit,

13:48

it's going to be like this for the rest of my life.

13:50

That's what I thought.

13:51

It's always going to be like this.

13:53

I'm going to, if I quit,

13:55

I'm always going to be craving alcohol.

13:58

I'm always going to be miserable without it.

14:00

But I was so addicted to it and it made me so miserable

14:05

that, well, a couple of things happened.

14:07

It was that and my father had died a few years earlier

14:11

and then my mother died.

14:12

My mother died in early 2013.

14:15

And when my mother died, my drinking suddenly changed

14:18

and I started to have blackouts.

14:20

And I would think to myself, that generation is gone.

14:24

My generation is next.

14:25

I'm not really an adult.

14:27

I'm not really mature.

14:28

What am I doing?

14:29

I'm ashamed of what I'm doing, but I can't control it.

14:32

So anyway, I decided that

14:35

if I was going to be miserable drinking,

14:37

I would also be miserable if I didn't drink.

14:39

But given the choice between the two,

14:42

maybe I should try not drinking.

14:44

And that misery would be okay.

14:47

I would get through that.

14:48

So I decided to quit.

14:49

So I went to my therapist and we tried to plan it.

14:53

And then one day I just decided, I'm just gonna quit.

14:55

I'm gonna drink up everything in the house.

14:57

There'll be nothing left.

14:58

And then if I really can't resist,

15:01

I'll go out and buy some, but I don't intend to do that.

15:05

So that was September 2nd.

15:07

That was the last day that I had a drink.

15:10

I drank everything up in the house,

15:12

except for the most obscure liqueurs under the kitchen sink,

15:16

drank up everything that was drinkable and stopped.

15:19

And within a few hours I decided I better get in my car

15:22

and go to the hospital

15:23

because something really crazy was going on.

15:25

And I think I was about to have a stroke,

15:27

but I didn't get there.

15:28

I got to the hospital and they got me on some medication.

15:30

And then they got me into this outpatient program.

15:33

And I mean, right away,

15:34

I was still taking detox medication for alcohol.

15:39

And three days later, they take me off of that

15:43

and I start this outpatient program.

15:45

And the outpatient program was just kind of a medical approach

15:49

to why you shouldn't drink, bad things about drinking.

15:52

Here's what the nurse has to say about drinking.

15:55

Let's try a little mindful meditation.

15:56

That'll help calm you a little bit, things like that.

16:00

But what I really enjoyed for those 10 days

16:03

was being around a group of people

16:05

that were in there for various reasons with all addictions.

16:08

They were either alcohol or drugs or, you know,

16:11

they were all alcohol or drugs.

16:12

And what I got from being around that group of people

16:15

was I actually got to talk to people

16:18

because I had been so isolated.

16:19

I worked at home. I drank at home.

16:21

I drank around the clock. I didn't talk to anybody.

16:24

And so in that 10 days, I got to actually talk to some people.

16:29

And that was very good. I enjoyed it.

16:33

And at the end of the 10th day, they gave me a marble

16:35

and said, "You've graduated. Go home."

16:37

I said, "What do I do now?" I said, "Go to AA."

16:39

So I actually went to AA, and as I said earlier,

16:43

I walked into -- second meeting I went to,

16:45

I walked into Quality of Life, QAF.

16:47

And, yeah, my friend Brent doesn't know that secret.

16:51

When I say Quality of Life, they say, yeah, yeah.

16:55

So now you know.

16:57

So I looked at what everybody was doing.

17:00

They all had sponsors.

17:01

There were a group of us in the first year.

17:03

Scott had a year.

17:04

I looked up to Scott like he had 30 years.

17:07

And don't we all? Absolutely.

17:09

And so I decided to pick guest sponsor.

17:12

So I got Al to be my sponsor. Al was a big guy.

17:15

He was very demanding.

17:16

He made me take him out and ask him the right way

17:20

to be his sponsee.

17:23

And he made me promise that I would do everything

17:26

that he told me to do. There were no suggestions.

17:28

There was, "I'm going to tell you what to do,

17:30

and that's what you're going to do."

17:31

And that went very well.

17:33

Then I got to working with Al

17:35

and going to all the Quality of Life meetings.

17:38

I got a year.

17:40

And Jerry and Katie had a watch for me.

17:43

And so the day of the watch, I wrecked my car.

17:46

And I thought, oh, well, that's bad timing.

17:49

But wow, I'm really not, this is different.

17:53

It doesn't bother me as much as it used to.

17:57

Now, go back a few years earlier,

17:59

and I had a brand new convertible.

18:01

And somebody hit my convertible,

18:03

and it had to go in the shop.

18:05

And I went home and I pouted and I drank for a month.

18:09

That's what I had to do.

18:11

I mean, literally a month.

18:12

I didn't leave the house for a month.

18:14

So now here I am, I've got a year.

18:16

I wrecked my car. It's okay.

18:19

I drove it with a crack grill, and I went to my watch.

18:22

The watch was great. We had a good time.

18:24

Jerry offered me a beer before midnight.

18:28

And I said, "No, thank you, I'll take a rain check."

18:31

And so then I go on from there.

18:33

And about three years, Al left our group,

18:37

and I had another sponsor, Jerry.

18:40

But then I was talking to Greg a lot,

18:44

and Greg said to me one day at about three years,

18:46

I'll never forget this.

18:47

He said, "You know, your first year or two,

18:49

you're really in a drinking program."

18:51

And he said, "John, I think you'll realize

18:54

as time goes on that you're really,

18:56

once you get past the drinking part of it,

18:58

you're really in a thinking program."

19:01

And that really stuck with me.

19:02

I didn't know exactly what he meant at the time,

19:05

but I knew that it sounded pretty important

19:07

and I needed to think about it.

19:08

So Jerry and I then toured my fifth year.

19:12

Jerry and I did work the steps again.

19:15

And this time I took a serious look at the character defects

19:18

and I made a list of character.

19:20

I did some amends.

19:21

Jerry helped me do some amends

19:22

I didn't do the first time around, so I felt a little better.

19:25

So I didn't have a lot of guilt going on,

19:27

but I did have this list of character defects,

19:31

and I started working on some of them.

19:32

And some of them, I just, I didn't want to work on them.

19:35

There were some that I put on the back burner,

19:38

so I'll deal with those later.

19:40

So at about seven years, I find myself,

19:44

we're in the middle of COVID and I take the opportunity

19:46

to move to Palm Springs and start over

19:49

with a different group and so I found a clubhouse out there.

19:51

And then I started to think, how happy are you really?

19:56

How are you doing in your sobriety?

19:57

You're not drinking, but just can it be better?

20:02

So I started to look at ways that I could get some more tools

20:05

and I talked to people to try to figure out

20:08

what other people were doing.

20:09

And it was a combination of things.

20:11

Number one, I wanted to work

20:13

on some of those character defects,

20:15

because some of them I could put up with them,

20:17

but they really made me feel bad about myself

20:19

and they were things that I could really work on.

20:21

And there was some sexual inventory in there

20:24

and I'm not going to go into that,

20:26

but there were some things that I just,

20:29

they still gave me shame.

20:31

At seven years, I still had some shame

20:34

and I still wasn't always being honest with my sponsor.

20:37

So I decided, okay, we'll work on that.

20:40

Now at about eight years, I found myself in pain one day

20:45

and ended up in the hospital.

20:46

And the hospital diagnosed very quickly

20:49

that I had bone cancer and that was a big surprise.

20:52

And having bone cancer was one of the biggest fears

20:55

I've ever had in my life.

20:56

Having cancer was one of the biggest fears

20:58

that I've ever had in my life.

20:59

And there I was faced with it.

21:00

And I remember laying there in great pain

21:03

after getting that diagnosis

21:05

and thinking about it for about an hour.

21:07

And it's something that I learned in the program

21:11

told me to work the steps and say the serenity prayer

21:14

and just put one foot in front of the other

21:17

and think positive thoughts rather than negative thoughts.

21:21

And I just moved forward and it didn't look good at first.

21:24

My brother flew out to help take care of me.

21:27

And after two days with me, he said, you're different.

21:31

You're not responding to this

21:34

the way I thought you would at all.

21:35

And I said, well, I don't know quite how to explain it,

21:38

but it's not the end of the world.

21:40

It's just another health problem.

21:42

And I started to think of the fact that alcoholism

21:45

is a life-threatening illness

21:47

and I've been dealing with it by working the program.

21:49

And this is just another life-threatening program,

21:53

the life-threatening thing that I need to deal with.

21:55

And it's just one day at a time.

21:57

And I am truly amazed

21:59

that I was able to look at it that way,

22:01

but I thank the program, what I've learned in the program,

22:04

what the support and the advice I've gotten from my sponsors

22:08

have really helped me to get through things like that.

22:12

And I gotta say worst things have happened to me in sobriety

22:16

than ever happened to me when I was drinking and using,

22:19

but it's my perception is totally different.

22:21

It's just the total 180 degree turn

22:24

and it's little things that I've learned along the way.

22:26

And you study the steps for years

22:29

and then all of a sudden one day when you need them,

22:32

they come to you and you can apply them

22:34

and it helps you get through the day.

22:37

And all you need to do is get through this day.

22:39

You don't know what tomorrow is.

22:41

And I know that I'm not gonna drink

22:44

because I didn't drink yesterday and I didn't drink today.

22:46

And tomorrow I'm gonna do the same thing that I did today.

22:50

And I think that's going to keep me from drinking.

22:52

Now, my goal though is to be a little better every day,

22:56

be a little better tomorrow than I am today.

22:59

And that means working on those character defects.

23:01

It means doing a lot of service.

23:03

I do as much service as I can handle

23:05

without totally overloading myself.

23:07

And yet I give myself some free time

23:10

because I need some free time.

23:12

I mean, I think we all deserve to pay ourselves

23:14

a little time once in a while,

23:16

but we also need to give back to others.

23:18

We need to be out there.

23:19

We need to give a good example

23:21

to other people in the program.

23:23

And I do what I can.

23:25

So I've only got a few minutes left

23:28

and I wanted to leave you with one thing

23:30

that's very inspirational to me.

23:33

As Bill sees it, page one, the very first page.

23:36

Take me a minute to get to it.

23:38

This is how I see my sobriety.

23:39

Page one, personality change.

23:41

It has often been said of AA

23:44

that we are interested only in alcoholism.

23:46

That is not true.

23:47

We have to get over drinking in order to stay alive.

23:50

But anyone who knows the alcoholic personality

23:52

by firsthand contact knows that no true alkie

23:56

ever stops drinking permanently

23:58

without undergoing a profound personality change.

24:01

We thought conditions drove us to drink.

24:03

And when we tried to correct these conditions

24:05

and found that we couldn't do so to our entire satisfaction,

24:09

our drinking went out of hand and we became alcoholics.

24:12

It never occurred to us that we needed to change ourselves

24:16

to meet conditions, whatever they were.

24:20

I think that describes where I'm trying to be today.

24:23

And thanks, it's good to see all of you again.